Happy Hour on the Fringe: Juliana Carter
Raina: Hello and welcome to Happy Hour on the Fringe. FringeArts is Philadelphia’s premier presenter of contemporary performing arts. I’m Raina Searles, marketing manager here at FringeArts, and I’m joined today by Jennifer Shorstein, our individual giving manager, and today we invite you to pour one up and enjoy our conversation with some of the most imaginative people on this plane of existence. Over the course of 2020, here on Happy Hour on the Fringe, we’ve talked with creatives of all disciplines during our Global Pandemic series, our 2020 Fringe Festival episodes, and every episode in between. As this crazy year comes to a close and a new year begins, our conversations on the podcast will be about reflection as well as looking forward to the future of FringeArts, with some guests who are closely involved with our organization. Today we are joined by Juliana Carter, our newest board member as of this summer and co-chair of our Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee as well as a litigation associate with Ballard Spahr LLP and a volunteer attorney with the Support Center for Child Advocates. Welcome, Juliana!
Juliana Carter: Hey Raina! How are you?
Raina: Doing well! Doing well! How are you doing?
Juliana: I’m good. I have officially relocated to my mom’s house in North Carolina for the remainder of 2020 and the holiday season, so long trip but really nice to be here in middle of nowhere, you know, look out the window and see some trees…BOOM, change of scenery from my fishtown views.
Raina: Yeah, and I’m curious, because did you kind of skip over the the big Philly snow we had?
Juliana: Oh I was here, and in fact I had to dig my car out in order to get out of town, which was interesting. I got a car specifically during the pandemic like as a, you know, ‘get out of dodge escape plan’, and it’s been great because it’s allowed me to come home several states away, you know, when I usually would have jumped on an airplane, so it works out. But no, I did get to enjoy the snow, and I’m glad to be leaving before it gets dirty, as it tends to get over time.
Raina: Yeah. I will say it’s also melting a little bit already. I was walking by a field and it was like two kind of sad looking snowmen and then a lot of green grass starting to sprout up. We’re on the tail end, it seems.
Juliana: The snowmen I saw were still happy when I left, so I’m relieved to have that vision with me.
Raina: That’s good! Well since this is Happy Hour on the Fringe, you know, one of our first questions is always, “What are we drinking today?”
Juliana: I’m drinking some Swiss Miss hot cocoa with, you know, it’s the two packets that are connected; one’s the mix and one’s the marshmallows. Although, it’s like suspect what they’re actually made out of.
Raina: Oh, that’s amazing.
Juliana: Very seasonal, very wholesome beverãge.
Raina: No, that sounds very warm and cozy. Right now I’m just having water. We were talking before we started recording, but I was looking for a post office dropbox and so I ended up taking a longer walk than expected this afternoon. But we’re back! We’re settled! We’re rehydrating! But also we’re in that time period where it’s, like, cold outside, but then as soon as you start walking a lot, you get hot and you don’t know if you want to take off your coat or not. But yes, so I’m refreshing. Jen, what are you having?
Jennifer: I’m enjoying a crisp bottled San Pellegrino right now.
Raina: Oh, sounds very refreshing!
Juliana: So hydrated.
Jennifer: I may switch to hot chocolate after this though.
Juliana: Glad to be inspiring.
Raina: So, Juliana, just to give our audiences a little bit more on your background and what led you to where we are today, can you tell us a little bit about how your career/your life has shifted this year and any kind of highlights or lowlights you feel comfortable sharing?
Juliana: Yeah, sure! So I’m a lawyer, and I’ve been at my law firm, Ballard Spahr, for about three years. And I got connected with Nick, our founder and CEO, in…I guess it was late January, early February of this year through one of my colleagues, a partner at the firm, one of my favorite people, and he goes way back with Nick; they used to coach little league together for their kids. And so he linked me up with Nick, who I guess was looking for a new board member. And so, I mean, really joining the board has been a huge highlight of my 2020. I was elected to the board, I believe, in March of this year, and it was shortly after the world shut down, because the meeting was via Zoom and I think that it had maybe initially been scheduled to be in-person and then was moved to the digital platform. It’s all sort of a haze. I’m sure you can understand, dates-wise.
Raina: Oh yeah.
Juliana: Yeah! So, you know, my involvement with Fringe has been a huge highlight of my 2020 and sort of kicked the year off in a really nice way because, you know, I moved to Philly in 2013, right after college, to go to law school. And my life in Philly has been so focused on the law, you know, my career, either going to school or now, like, building my career, being in the early stages of it. And so I haven’t really gotten to see the forest for the trees in Philly, even though I know it’s a great city and I have gotten to explore it in different ways. I’ve definitely eaten my way through Philly. But I’d always heard of FringeArts and Fringe Festival and thought, you know, “Oh, that’s great,” and then fallen sort of back into my little ‘law bubble’ or ‘immediate circle bubble’. So this has been really neat, to get involved with the Philadelphia arts community in a way that feels really impactful, and for an organization that I think is objectively the coolest arts organization in Philly. But, you know, 2020 stinks…
Raina: Uh huh.
Juliana: To state the obvious, and to use a more PG word than I probably would otherwise use if we weren’t recording for mass consumption. I lost my beloved kitty cat Missy from old age but, you know, she was like my companion throughout all of this and then she passed away. I feel like…I live alone, other than my pets, and feeling totally isolated and totally, like, there’s no one to turn to to just watch TV with. There’s no one to turn to and say, you know, “What the hell?!” But in some ways it’s forced me to pick up the phone and talk to people more often, check in with people, and I’ve gotten to really nest in my house. I work long hours, and my tendency has sort of been to come home to a mess and sort of just ignore it, because I’m just out the door again the next day for work. Or even on the weekend, like, being a weekend warrior and being, like, “I’m gonna go out of town and visit friends,” or, “I’m gonna go see a concert,” or whatever. And now that I’ve been home and everything is sort of focused here around my home, I feel like I’ve really gotten to put, you know, I’ve hung art on the walls and I’ve organized, and now I really feel like my house is an extension of myself, and I feel good and comfortable in the space. I turned my junk room into a home office that I actually enjoy sitting and working in, so yeah. I mean, I think becoming self-reliant and…I’m nicer to myself and I’m taking better care of myself than I ever have in 2020.
Raina: I love that! I’m also really curious, because you mentioned that you tend to work long hours, have you found that you’re still kind of getting that work/life separation or are you, like, sending emails and then just kind of going until suddenly you realize it’s time for dinner and—I don’t know—back to work? Or are you like actually taking the time to say, “Okay, work is over. I’m stepping out of my office. I’m, kind of, you know, going somewhere else and distancing.”
Juliana: Yeah, I think I have, as part of being nicer to myself, overall I think that I’ve set better boundaries for myself, because without the physical separation of saying, “Okay, I’m going to work, and when I leave the office I’m done.” Now it’s like I’m living at work and so, you know, having to cut myself off and saying, “Okay, it’s seven o’clock, like, it’s time to relax, time to recharge,” it’s sort of made me think more about, like, what really needs to get done now and, you know, putting the oxygen mask on myself first so that I’m not going through this constant cycle of, like, working myself to the bone and then feeling like I have to take a break because I’ve exhausted myself. I think that that has certainly been a product of having no physical boundary, no line of demarcation, between where my life starts and ends as it relates to my job.
Jennifer: That is so important right now.
Juliana: Yeah, sheesh, I don’t know if I would have, like, found the time to make myself do this for myself if I wasn’t forced to, and I think that that has sort of thematically come up for a lot of people in a lot of different ways this year.
Raina: Yeah, I definitely second that. I think I’ve been really good about kind of turning work off at a certain time this year but, to be fair, what I’ve never really been good at is my eating schedule. And so, like, taking a lunch break, even when we were in office, was always kind of like a spotty thing where I’d be eating at my desk or this and that. And then, I think, when I shipped over to remote I was immediately like, “Ah well, I’m working and I’m working and I’m working, and then suddenly it’s like 4PM, and I’m like, ‘I should have lunch.’” But I think, you know, it’s so important to also, like, remember that you can take a step away from the computer and that if you’re not responding to an email in 10 minutes, you know, it’s not the worst thing in the world, and there are plenty of other things to keep us occupied in this time. So yeah, no, I think that’s totally fair. And so I know obviously FringeArts this year has had a very different look in terms of programming and seeing shows and getting to experience different parts of Fringe, but I’m curious to know just, like, from your time with us so far, do you have any kind of favorite or really memorable moments, whether it’s on the show side or on, you know, the board committee side?
Juliana: Well both for sure. I have to say, so before I was formally invited or voted on to the board, I had the opportunity on February 28th, right before everything shut down, to enjoy the fabulous Get Pegged Cabaret, which was hosted by Martha Graham Cracker, and the performers were PJ Brown and Molly Pope, and that has been a highlight of 2020 also. I mean, you know, usually by now I would have seen like 25 performances, mostly at Union Transfer/The Fillmore, but even still, like, this has been such a highlight. It was so fabulous. It was so much fun. So definitely, that was a great introduction to the type of performances that happen at FringeArts. And then from the committee side, I just think that getting involved with the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee has been such a privilege, and getting to know my board colleagues in a different way and in a more intimate way for everybody, you know, staff and board included. We’re getting to dig into different topics about the organization as it is today and the organization as we want to see it become or maintain in the future. It’s just been a great experience. I’ve gotten to know you, Raina and Jennifer, on a better level, and just…It’s shown me that FringeArts is not only a great organization for the performances that it puts on but, like, it’s made up of really great people who are very thoughtful and progressive and who just are people that I want to spend time with, so that’s been really neat.
Raina: Yeah, no, I full-heartedly agree with that. I think the team here is incredible, and it’s so great to get to work with them and, even through this year, we’ve done an incredibly unexpected amount of, like, problem solving in a way that I didn’t expect going into this year. It was one of those things where, like, I was going into my fourth Fringe Festival now and I was like, “I know the deal. I know how this works.” We had just finished our second Blue Heaven Comedy Festival. We’re doing our second High Pressure Fire Service Festival, our third Hand to Hand Circus Festival this year. You know, I’ve got it on lock. And then, kind of, everything changed and everything blew up, and then just seeing how our team has been able to adapt has been so awesome. And I think, you know, the DEI Committee is something that has changed shape so many times and has worked really hard to be responsive and also, you know, preemptive and making sure that we’re ideally addressing things even before they happen. But, you know, I think even FringeArts has faced a number of challenges this year that were brought up by the conversation around Black Lives Matter and around police brutality and, like, what is our role in that? And, you know, what voices can we help uplift in this conversation? And so, you know, there’s been a lot circling internally and externally, and it’s really been great to be able to work on advancing that within the organization.
Juliana: Yeah, absolutely. I think something that’s happened, internally and externally, and something that you just alluded to, Raina, is that we’ve all been forced to take ourselves off of autopilot and say, “Okay, actually maybe, like, I have an opportunity to really look at what I’m doing and look at what’s happening around me and just like assess it in a way where, like, you have some distance from it.” Because it’s not like, you know, if Fringe Festival went off this year the same way as it’s always gone, it’s like, you probably would have just done the things that you know to do from year to year. And, you know, having to adapt and adjust and pivot sort of allows the space to be like, “What do I really want to be doing here,” or like, “How does this actually work?”
Raina: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think one question—and it’s a little bit two-pronged—but, you know, Philadelphia’s performing art scene and the entire arts economy, both nationally and globally, has been really hard hit by the pandemic and by very necessary health and safety restrictions and the lack of any sort of, you know, strong funding efforts, and so the future is very up in the air in a lot of ways. And so I’m curious—you know, this is definitely a hard question—but I’m curious about what you think the future might hold for Fringe and perhaps performing arts more broadly and, you know, if you have any thoughts on that path to recovery and rebuilding.
Juliana: Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s sort of two ways to think about it, in terms of the mechanics and then also the more heady thought of like, you know, mechanics of like, “How do we safely reopen,” and, “How do we incorporate the virtual model, that we’ve gotten more familiar with this year, with bringing back in-person performances,” and what that looks like. What capacity can we do it at? But I think that, you know, I think, for me, the more sort of interesting philosophical, existential thought is, like, human behavior. When are we gonna feel safe? When are we going to feel comfortable? And that’s so hard to predict. And I think something I’ve seen this year is that people feel so differently about the same issue, you know, even like the vaccine right now; like, people are eager to take it; people are eager not to take it. And then, like, what does that really mean in terms of reopening? I’ve stopped trying to guess what’s happening tomorrow, but I feel optimistic about the future of performing arts in general and definitely the future of FringeArts. Like I for one, as someone who loves to go to shows, I can’t wait until the day that I can be in a crowded auditorium, you know, enjoying a performance, like, I cannot wait. I can’t wait to hug random strangers again without feeling weird about it, can’t wait to just like watch and consume art without restriction and, like, really allow myself to be transported to another place. And so, you know, for me personally, like, I think people probably feel the same; (people) who were going to shows before are eager to get back to some semblance of what life was like before. And that’s not to say that, like, I’m a proponent of ‘let’s get back to normal’. You know, the normal that we think about of before 2020, like, wasn’t working in a lot of ways. And so, you know, I’m thinking more of, like, how do I reconnect with the things in my life that have always brought me joy, that have helped me to grow and think more expansively? And any consumer of the arts and, you know, any person with a heart, feels like performing arts and being part of a an audience and being able to to connect with other people about the different art that you’ve consumed and enjoyed all of those things, like, I’m ready to get back to, and I think others will be too in due time. And who knows if that will be next year or next week, but I know that at some point it’ll happen.
Jennifer: Juliana, hearing you talk about performance like that literally just gave me chills.
Juliana: Aww! I really feel that way! I really do! Like, there’s so much in this world that is awful and the opposite of uplifting and inspiring, and it’s, for me, all about finding moments in life that are foils to the horrible. And we have the opportunity to do that for ourselves. That’s the gift that we give ourselves; (the gift) is being able to go to places like FringeArts and to connect with the art and to feel less alone. That is really what art does for me. It makes me feel less alone, because when I see a performance that, like, resonates with me or a comedian makes a joke that I laugh at because I’m like, “Oh, that’s too true,” that is what makes me feel like being human isn’t all that bad.
Raina: Yeah, I think that’s so true. I’m even thinking, like, during the Fringe Festival we had so many people, you know, in our surveys, and even in chats for different shows, saying that it was great to kind of feel like you were in a crowd and, you know, even though so much of it was virtual, like, you felt like you were watching with other people and reacting in real time with other people, which you don’t get anymore. And one of the shows—I believe it was called portal perspective—and it was set in a gallery window, and so people watched from outside, you know, masks on, socially distant but could be viewing the performance through this window. And one of our co-workers, well, Zach, who’s one of the hosts of this podcast as well, said that when everyone kind of like clapped together at the end, he almost cried because it was like, you know, it had been like seven to eight months since he had been with other people, sharing a live in-person experience, and got emotional about it. And I think that’s something that I think, to your point, is such an integral part of the human experience is our ability to share things and relate to each other and feel things together, and that’s definitely something that, like, I miss too. I think during the Fringe Festival—and I might have mentioned this on the podcast before too—but like, on the first night I was folding laundry in my apartment while watching a show and I was like, “This feels anti-climactic in some ways.” And I loved, still, being able to get that virtual experience but also, you know, it’s my fault for folding laundry. I could have been sitting down. But I think, you know, it’s like when I’m watching Netflix at home; I’ll be multitasking. And so I think it puts it on the same level of, like, having something on in the background to an extent versus, like, fully immersing yourself.
Raina: …which happens when you actually leave the house to go do something.
Juliana: Yeah! When you’re sitting in a dark theater, and you would be a total asshole to look at your phone or do something different than then pay attention to exactly what you’re there to pay attention to, right, it’s totally different than being in your house which, I mean, in some ways it’s like our safe haven, and other ways, maybe this year, it’s felt like imprisoning at times since we’ve been so confined to them. But yeah. It is! But sometimes, you know, you have those moments too, where the performance that’s on the background is so compelling that, like, you stop folding midway, and sometimes we just aren’t open to that, because we just have way too much going on. But being like, “Okay, I’m gonna leave the house. I’m gonna go do this. I’m gonna go do that,” is a way to just, like again, disconnect ourselves from these different siloed parts of ourselves: like, who Juliana is at home, who she is at the office, who she is at Get Pegged. And being able to really, like, immerse ourselves that way. I had a similar experience during the Fringe Fest; I enjoyed Legal Tender, and that was a really cool performance because the performers were like…basically they took us on a walk around the city and, you know, so they were just like walking past other random people, doing their performance, but it felt almost like you were FaceTiming with somebody who was, like, on their way to do something else. And then, at the end, it sort of it morphed into being like, you know, watching this performer in a way that sort of broke the barrier between a performance and just being someone walking on the street, sharing something with you about themselves. It sort of then turned into a video that was super ethereal and sort of weird and interesting; and that was, like, really a cool way that I saw, you know, an artist sort of blend the reality of what was going on for us with the traditional immersive artsy experience that you might have expected to see happen in a theater. So that was a really fun experience.
Raina: Yeah, that’s so awesome. I think, you know, one of the things I’m curious if you have any thoughts on is, you know, looking at the the ‘other side of the pandemic’, whenever that is, do you foresee any possible positive changes for the the performing arts community that are kind of coming out of the adaptations and, kind of, lessons that we’ve started to learn during this time?
Juliana: Yeah. I mean, listen, it’s hard. I think the answer to that is ‘yes’, and I’m going to share with you what I think, but I also want to give the disclaimer that I am like a huge dissenter against this, like, toxic positivity that people have sometimes, of being like, “Here’s a silver lining,” or like, “Everything happens for a reason.” Like, I don’t believe that at all, so I just…I feel like I have to say that because I, not to be a Debbie Downer, but I actually think that toxic positivity like that and this like, “Everything is meant to be,” or something like that. I think that actually comes from a place of privilege that is really disconnected from the reality of things, and I’ve always felt that way. But I think sometimes it’s also easy, for me at least, to be like, when someone asks me how I’m doing, to be like, “Great!” And, you know, narrator in the background, “Things were not great.” And so, on some level, I think that from the performing arts point of view, from FringeArts’ point of view, and from the way that things that have happened this year are going to hopefully lead to something positive in the future. Maybe it’s like feeling more connected to our own humanity and to others, the humanity of others. Being able to have more candid conversations about, like, things are not awesome, like, things are not great, and not shy away from that as being something that’s taboo or something that might make, you know, it being less like socially uncomfortable with being real about what’s going on for you and, like, what’s going on in the world and sort of seeing how that might lead into the level of vulnerability that we see in art and in life. I think that something that was already on FringeArts has radar, I’ve learned through our DEI work, has been accessibility of art; and I think that having more comfortability with the digital platform, and thinking about how to be agile and adapt to a different climate and world, thinking about a way to reach audiences in untraditional ways will hopefully lead to that in the future. Like, how do we make our art and performances and organization more accessible to people who can’t necessarily show up? And also, like, when we do reopen, and when we do start to have in-person performances, like, how do we think about accessibility in real life too?
Raina: Yeah, well, to your point about accessibility, I think there’s definitely like so many little things that we’ve learned along the way in terms of, like, virtual accessibility and, you know, it’s everything from including the link to access everywhere possible and making sure that we have captions and, you know, options for live captioning as well, but even just like something as as simple as putting the time zone in our emails and communications. We had a number of times, people were like, “Oh, I logged in at this time but it wasn’t live and it’s like, ‘Oh thank you for coming to us from California! We are presenting everything on Eastern time,’” and, you know, how can we reach people, and make sure that we are being accessible to people, from whatever standpoint? And that’s something that has been a part of our work since before the pandemic, but I think there’s also things that, you know, plenty of people who are just in different situations are blind to because it’s not part of their everyday reality, and then there’s so much that was new to a lot of people in general. And so yeah, this has been a huge learning experience—I think—for us, especially in terms of accessibility and ways that we can keep serving different communities on a broader scale.
Juliana: Yeah, and thinking about, like…I think that on an individual level, and also organizationally, I think we’ve all been posed the question of like, “What are we doing during the revolution, or a time that’s a little apocalyptic? What are we doing? Are we doing what we say that we want to be doing?” And we’ve had this enormous resurgence in a social justice, a racial justice movement this year, and in thinking about like, “What are we doing? Are we doing the things that we want to be doing?” You know, something that struck me when I first got involved with the organization, and was invited to co-chair the DEI committee, was in talking to the staff and the sentiment that FringeArts wants to internally and externally be an anti-racist organization, like the recognition that it’s not enough to be not racist but we need to actually be anti-racist. That floored me, like, what an incredible sentiment and what a great community and staff that FringeArts has, for people to be that thoughtful. And, you know, I think that a lot of organizations have realized that they’re being looked at internally and externally with a more critical eye around, like, what are they doing to advance racial justice and social justice? And the fact that we have a staff who has been thinking about that, and who is thinking about it, I think has been incredible to be a part of. And relatedly, in like a more broad or abstract sense, I think that this year has allowed many of us to be more thoughtful about each other. We’re a lot more considerate about, like, “What can I do to make sure that I’m not harming someone else,” and, you know, from like a global health perspective that’s been wearing a mask; that’s been social distancing; that’s been cancelling that vacation you wanted to go to, or just like not being a jerk walking in the street, being inconsiderate of people. And I think that that also will serve us in the future because, like, organizationally and societally, we’re thinking further than the tip of our nose, and we’re thinking about how our actions impact others, and we’re being more thoughtful about, like, what are people’s experiences that might not be my personal experience but that is very real and that I should care about? And so I think that moving forward in a way where we never forget about this moment, like we never forget about the need to be considerate of others, the need to be inclusive, and holding ourselves accountable to the ways that we felt in this moment and the things that we said that we wanted to do now, making sure that that carries forward. And I think that FringeArts is really committed to that, you know. An example…or exemplary of that is the fact that Paul Wright, our colleague on the board and the co-chair with me on the DEI Committee, you know, Paul and I are now, as of recently, part of the executive board for the organization, and I think that that speaks volumes, like not only symbolically as leaders of the DEI Committee but also practically. Because we want to eventually have FringeArts be an organization that, like—and I’m cribbing this from Paul, who is amazing, and I’m sure you’ve heard this before—but the idea that, like, we’re working towards not having a DEI Committee because DEI Committees should not be a thing, like, being an inclusive, thoughtful, equitable, and multicultural organization should not be like a siloed task; it should be inherent and integral in everything that we do. So, again, I think that that’s like a step in the right direction for the future. And of course not everybody has taken this moment in history to be thoughtful of other people, but I think certainly me, personally, and also, I think what I’ve seen from FringeArts is that we have taken this moment for that.
Raina: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a really great note to end on, and so I’ll just kind of leave it open. Is there anything else that you are thinking about, going into the new year?It can be about FringeArts. It can be any personal resolutions, anything you’re looking forward to or looking forward to leaving behind in 2020.
Juliana: An interesting question, particularly, like, the ‘leaving behind’. Also, today is the winter solstice, so it’s a perfect day to set intentions for going forward and thinking about leaving behind the things that no longer serve us. And I think that…gosh, I mean, I can’t think of a better thing to try to carry forward with me than being nice to myself and being nice to other people and thinking about things beyond myself, continually reassessing and reevaluating, like, “What am I doing? What’s my place in the world? How am I contributing to leave behind a better world than what I was born into,” and just trying to do, like, the next right thing and give space between action and reaction and also to remember that being a part of social change and a revolution is, like, you have to constantly be thinking about, “What am I doing to further that today?” Like, it’s not a one and done thing; being anti-racist, or being just a good person, is, like, you don’t just do a good deed and then say, “Well, I’ve filled my quota.” You’re trying to do something every single day and take every action with thoughtfulness. So that’s my goal. Maybe it’s a little heady or ‘woo’. Yeah, just trying to continually, like, look at myself and look at the world and look at others and, like, look at myself in a way that’s not all about myself, getting out of my own head and seeing how I can help other people and—I don’t know—just contribute good things. I am definitely going to will into action live performances next year. Nothing would make me happier than being able to be in a crowded audience with a killer performance. I’m 100% going to will that into existence for 2021, that we can all do that safely. We can all, you know, give each other hugs and…like, y’all, do you realize that we’ve, the three of us, have never met? Well, no, Jen, you and I met at the Get Pegged Cabaret. Like, Raina, you and I have never met offline.
Raina: That is true.
Juliana: That is a good goal for, like, safely meeting Raina in the new year.
Raina: I love that. I’ll make that goal as well.
Jennifer: Preach, for real.
Raina: Yeah, well, Juliana, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Happy Hour on the Fringe. Thanks to all of our listeners. We’re wishing everyone a happy New Year. Hopefully you’re able to celebrate it in some way, even if it’s not how you might normally be celebrating the new year, but we encourage everyone to follow us on social media, download the FringeArts app, and, you know, sign up for our email list to stay up to date on what live events we hopefully have in our future, and any virtual as well. And, yeah, happy holidays from everyone at FringeArts. Thank you.